Strikes me that you and other bloggers I admire are amateurs in the most wonderful sense – you do it for love. Not power, glory or free ARCs, but simply joy in sharing and discourse. Keep it up, kiddo.

Wrong choice. Jessica is an academic, which is whole other class of animal that’s also a reader in the grand scheme of things.

not sure if this needs to be said, but I will anyway — I am a total amateur when it comes to anything romance related. I have no degree of any kind in literature and far less experience as a fan than anyone else on this thread.

Thanks, Bev, Ann, Sunita, Phyl and Janine for continuing the conversation.

But I don’t think you can escape the everything-in-DA=everyone-in-DA that readers attribute, whether it’s fair or not. It’s just something you have to figure out if you can live with.

I’m not crazy about that, but I’ve been living with it for a few years and think I can continue to do so. It’s being treated differently than other bloggers that’s newer, and frankly worries me more on behalf of my blogging partners than on my own behalf.

But what makes you think we see ourselves that way?

Do author’s perceptions of themselves as readers change the fact that when they’re talking about their own books they’re the author?

Does it truly matter that you see yourself as another reader when you have to function as the reviewers, moderators and/or administrators of the blog/site while talking to readers/visitors on it?

I was referencing you earlier comment where you described us as:

people who see themselves as more than “amatuer” reviewers

You also described us as as people who have:

drawn a line that separates them from other readers

That suggests that we not only see ourselves differently, but that we set out to separate ourselves. And since I don’t agree with either of those descriptions of us, I was challenging those descriptions.

Now, if I understand correctly, it sounds like you are conceding the point that we don’t see ourselves differently, and saying that it isn’t about how we see ourselves, but about the fact that we have standards.

I do agree that we have standards, but I’m not convinced that that having any kind of standard, regardless of what it is, by itself is what makes us something other than a reader blog, or causes us to be perceived differently by the community.

So many things can be considered standards. Running a spellcheck before one posts is a kind of standard. So is putting up a graphic with each post. There are plenty of blogs where one or both these things are done on a regular basis which are still viewed by most people as being reader blogs.

At Dear Author, we had the standard of the letter-to-the-author review format from day one, yet most people didn’t consider us something other than a reader blog back then.

Re. other blogs,

You haven’t heard me say that those aren’t perceived that way, too. You originally asked if someone could explain how a blog run by readers could no longer be perceived as a reader blog. If you go back and look at what I said, I think you’ll see it applies to a lot more romance blogs/sites than just DA.

It sounds like we are discussing two different things. You’re on the topic of what makes any site no longer a reader blog in your own eyes, and I respect that you’ve put forth your definition.

I, on the other hand, got on the topic from following up on the topics Jessica brought up and the links she posted, where DA and SBTB were specifically mentioned as being no longer reader sites, to the point where IMO it’s considered fair game to talk about the people who blog there in a very different king of tone.

I was trying to get at what makes SBTB and DA something other than a “reader blog” in the eyes of the community. And I do think that they are perceived differently now from the way they once were, and from the way some of the other blogs I’ve mentioned are perceived.

Anyway, thank you for your willingness to discuss the topic, because it seems that for most everyone else it is just open and shut, DA and SBTB are different, but most people seem to have no interest in pinning down the reasons for it.

So DA does lots of reviews, which draw readers, talks about the industry and ebooks, which draws readers, and occasionally wades into Internet Kerfuffles, which draws readers.

Yes, the magazine aspect also so very common on the most popular reviewing sites. Or is it the most popular magazine sites that also feature reviews? See, I’m not sure that the two things aren’t part of the same formula that play off each other. Sunita is very right that DA is extremely unique in its approach to the industry, though, which could be both good and bad in terms of this discussion.

I have contributed a guest review to DA at least twice. I really labored over those reviews because I was fully aware that a substantial number of people would read what I wrote (as opposed to the 2 dozen or so people who read my own blog). To me, it’s not so much that your reviews are different or in some way exceptional compared to other blogs, it’s that your readership is so huge. In addition, and perhaps more importantly, there are those in the industry who pay attention to what is said on DA. Jane now regularly appears on panels at conferences. Sometimes publishers provide books for you to give away in contests. And now there’s a DA blogger bundle for sale at Harlequin. All of this just serves to put DA on a different plane than the one many of the rest of us sit on. It’s not a better (higher) plane, just different. And so I think you yourself get lumped into that by being a reviewer there, even if it’s not your intent to be perceived as anything other than a reader/reviewer.

Rightly or wrongly, that’s is just how *I* see it. I hope that helps.

Otherwise, your feelings of being an outsider are your own problems, I guess, since I was simply asking for clarification because I was confused.

So DA does lots of reviews, which draw readers, talks about the industry and ebooks, which draws readers, and occasionally wades into Internet Kerfuffles, which draws readers. And all of you at DA, whether you participate in everything or not, get identified with whatever people are thinking DA is at any given time. I understand why that becomes frustrating, when you clearly are very careful *not* to participate in certain discussions. I have noticed over the years that some contributors never show up to post in certain types of comment threads.

But I don’t think you can escape the everything-in-DA=everyone-in-DA that readers attribute, whether it’s fair or not. It’s just something you have to figure out if you can live with.

But what makes you think we see ourselves that way?

Do author’s perceptions of themselves as readers change the fact that when they’re talking about their own books they’re the author?

Does it truly matter that you see yourself as another reader when you have to function as the reviewers, moderators and/or administrators of the blog/site while talking to readers/visitors on it?

Or you better be able to do so if you want the site to continue to function properly and maintain its level of success.

How is a review here on RRR any more “amateur” than a review on DA?

Wrong choice. Jessica is an academic, which is whole other class of animal that’s also a reader in the grand scheme of things.

I would compare you to me, but I don’t review and the roots of why go back to this very concept. I decided a long time ago I wanted to remain only a reader. I meant it because of the pitfalls I saw even then happening with certain sites. And AAR was only one of many.

How did we draw that line? When did we draw it? Can you tell me what was the turning point? Did it happen on day one, when Jane and Jayne posted their first reviews? Did it happen yesterday?

Yes, I can tell you what the turning point is because it’s always the same but I’m not sure you’ll believe me. It’s the point where you accept that there are standards for reviews that you have to strive for and uphold. And rightly so, it’s just that once a site/blog/enterprise or even an individual makes that a goal to strive for, it is automatically set apart from the average reader.

Notice I said the average reader. Yes there are readers who apply a type of standard to the reviews they do, but not all of them do. Many of them simply chat about what they read and call it reviewing. To not recognize that distinction is just as bad as not respecting the author of the book when appropriate. If I have learned nothing else from being subjected to all those reviewing discussion over the years, I have learned that much.

Think about it, the moment anyone does that, they’re not simply reading to be reading – it’s work. With a purpose. Doesn’t matter whether it’s organized chaos or military precision. Doesn’t matter if they’ve done it the same way from the beginning or if they slowly changed their technique over time.

It’s not about what the standards are, either. That’s irrelevant because those “what are the standards?” discussion go on all the time, too. It’s about the mindset that there are/should be standards in the first place.

Now tell me you don’t believe that reviews should be done to a standard of some kind of excellence, Janine, or that your visitors/readers don’t come to DA because they trust it to uphold that standard… whatever it is. I might believe you if you’re convincing enough.

There are other blogs that have or have had those qualities — the DIK ladies blog for example, or TGTBATU, that aren’t perceived the same way. And SBTB doesn’t have as many contributors, yet it also gets perceived differently. I think the reason for the different perception boils down to the fact that we have a big readership.

You haven’t heard me say that those aren’t perceived that way, too. You originally asked if someone could explain how a blog run by readers could no longer be perceived as a reader blog. If you go back and look at what I said, I think you’ll see it applies to a lot more romance blogs/sites than just DA.

But by the same token, you also can’t tell me that if you or Jessica blog for ten years, you won’t be doing it or relating to it a bit differently than you did in the beginning.

Oye, back to the years thing. Wasn’t this where I came in? Or was that another thread? I’ve lost track.

Funny, because you and I have participated in the same discussions any number of times. And as an m/m author who’s not even in the wolf pack of *that* genre, let alone that of wider Romance, yeah, I’m an outsider compared to you, Miss Mega Commenter. Everywhere I look on blogs, you’re there, pretty much as you are now, disdainful and dismissive.

How can you never have heard of me and simultaneously know I’m an author? If you mean you’ve never read my stuff, then please, say that plainly instead of trying to erase my existence.

Not engaging further with you, Bev. It’s not worth my energy.