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	<title>Comments on: Review: Proof by Seduction, by Courtney Milan</title>
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	<link>http://www.readreactreview.com/2010/01/23/review-proof-by-seduction-by-courtney-milan/</link>
	<description>Book Reviews, Philosophy, Academic Life</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2012 12:53:47 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: willaful</title>
		<link>http://www.readreactreview.com/2010/01/23/review-proof-by-seduction-by-courtney-milan/#comment-7594</link>
		<dc:creator>willaful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 14:12:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-6687&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jessica&lt;/a&gt;: 

Having read the book now -- which I didn&#039;t much like, incidentally -- I really see your point here, Jessica. No matter what the author&#039;s intent, I don&#039;t see anything in the text that would make Gareth &quot;diagnosable.&quot; Perhaps she did intend a very subtle portrayal of a very high-functioning person with Aspergers, but I would certainly not have advertised it as such, either. 

Being incurably curious however, now I&#039;m wondering if Ned is intended to be manic-depressive, rather than just depressed. ;-) There is one mention of his feelings when not depressed as being *extremely* happy... I don&#039;t remember the exact wording now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-6687" rel="nofollow">Jessica</a>: </p>
<p>Having read the book now &#8212; which I didn&#8217;t much like, incidentally &#8212; I really see your point here, Jessica. No matter what the author&#8217;s intent, I don&#8217;t see anything in the text that would make Gareth &#8220;diagnosable.&#8221; Perhaps she did intend a very subtle portrayal of a very high-functioning person with Aspergers, but I would certainly not have advertised it as such, either. </p>
<p>Being incurably curious however, now I&#8217;m wondering if Ned is intended to be manic-depressive, rather than just depressed. <img src='http://www.readreactreview.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />  There is one mention of his feelings when not depressed as being *extremely* happy&#8230; I don&#8217;t remember the exact wording now.</p>
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		<title>By: willaful</title>
		<link>http://www.readreactreview.com/2010/01/23/review-proof-by-seduction-by-courtney-milan/#comment-6786</link>
		<dc:creator>willaful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:46:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;m coincidentally reading another book with a possible Aspie character - this time the heroine. &lt;i&gt;Chasing Stanley&lt;/i&gt; by Deirdre Martin. Her &quot;official&quot; issue is social anxiety, but she has many Aspie traits - relates much more to animals than people, gets obsessive/goes overboard about her interests, tries to decipher the rules of social interaction. I just read a scene in which she&#039;s trying to read the expression on her ex&#039;s face and manages it by pretending he&#039;s a dog.  That just screams Aspie to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m coincidentally reading another book with a possible Aspie character &#8211; this time the heroine. <i>Chasing Stanley</i> by Deirdre Martin. Her &#8220;official&#8221; issue is social anxiety, but she has many Aspie traits &#8211; relates much more to animals than people, gets obsessive/goes overboard about her interests, tries to decipher the rules of social interaction. I just read a scene in which she&#8217;s trying to read the expression on her ex&#8217;s face and manages it by pretending he&#8217;s a dog.  That just screams Aspie to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Jessica</title>
		<link>http://www.readreactreview.com/2010/01/23/review-proof-by-seduction-by-courtney-milan/#comment-6781</link>
		<dc:creator>Jessica</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.racyromancereviews.com/?p=4972#comment-6781</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-6745&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Niveau&lt;/a&gt;: Thank you for sharing, both what you know about the author&#039;s intentions for the character, and your own experience. 

I am, perhaps culpably, ignorant about Asperger&#039;s. Does diagnosis lead to treatment? I confess I have no idea. even if there aren&#039;t ways to manage symptoms, it sounds from your comments that just having the diagnosis is significant in itself.

I will have to go back and see if you commented on Tumperkin&#039;s and my review of Lord Ian. I would be curious to know how why that portrayal didn&#039;t work for you.

@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-6758&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;willaful&lt;/a&gt;: Are two books a bandwagon? Sheesh.

I guess it is curious why Milan hasn&#039;t been upfront about it in interviews, the way Ashley (I think?) was. Maybe it&#039;s the bandwagon thing ... or maybe she or her publisher worried it would turn potential readers off? (although how anyone could think that given the wild, enduring success of this h/h dynamic and the embrace of books with heroes who have health-related struggles) or maybe it&#039;s that no one would have identified it when the book was set, so it&#039;s just like the many instances of PTSD or depression or anxiety in historical romances, where the author describes symptoms but never makes a diagnosis, either in the text or in interviews about the book?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-6745" rel="nofollow">Niveau</a>: Thank you for sharing, both what you know about the author&#8217;s intentions for the character, and your own experience. </p>
<p>I am, perhaps culpably, ignorant about Asperger&#8217;s. Does diagnosis lead to treatment? I confess I have no idea. even if there aren&#8217;t ways to manage symptoms, it sounds from your comments that just having the diagnosis is significant in itself.</p>
<p>I will have to go back and see if you commented on Tumperkin&#8217;s and my review of Lord Ian. I would be curious to know how why that portrayal didn&#8217;t work for you.</p>
<p>@<a href="#comment-6758" rel="nofollow">willaful</a>: Are two books a bandwagon? Sheesh.</p>
<p>I guess it is curious why Milan hasn&#8217;t been upfront about it in interviews, the way Ashley (I think?) was. Maybe it&#8217;s the bandwagon thing &#8230; or maybe she or her publisher worried it would turn potential readers off? (although how anyone could think that given the wild, enduring success of this h/h dynamic and the embrace of books with heroes who have health-related struggles) or maybe it&#8217;s that no one would have identified it when the book was set, so it&#8217;s just like the many instances of PTSD or depression or anxiety in historical romances, where the author describes symptoms but never makes a diagnosis, either in the text or in interviews about the book?</p>
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		<title>By: willaful</title>
		<link>http://www.readreactreview.com/2010/01/23/review-proof-by-seduction-by-courtney-milan/#comment-6758</link>
		<dc:creator>willaful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 18:52:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.racyromancereviews.com/?p=4972#comment-6758</guid>
		<description>Perhaps Milan did not want wish to appear to be jumping on a bandwagon? I&#039;ve already seen grousing about &quot;oh, everybody&#039;s autistic these days.&quot; Whereas I feel a bit like a memoir I read once by a black man, who wrote about how everyone in his neighborhood would gather to watch even the smallest appearance of anyone black on television. Probably the very unsatisfyingness of the portrayals just added to the need to see more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps Milan did not want wish to appear to be jumping on a bandwagon? I&#8217;ve already seen grousing about &#8220;oh, everybody&#8217;s autistic these days.&#8221; Whereas I feel a bit like a memoir I read once by a black man, who wrote about how everyone in his neighborhood would gather to watch even the smallest appearance of anyone black on television. Probably the very unsatisfyingness of the portrayals just added to the need to see more.</p>
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		<title>By: Niveau</title>
		<link>http://www.readreactreview.com/2010/01/23/review-proof-by-seduction-by-courtney-milan/#comment-6745</link>
		<dc:creator>Niveau</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 06:05:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.racyromancereviews.com/?p=4972#comment-6745</guid>
		<description>I actually read &lt;i&gt;Proof&lt;/i&gt; because a close friend of mine, who also has Asperger&#039;s, read me the scene in which Jenny explains how other people need to be touched sometimes to Gareth. That alone convinced me that he was like me, but the rest of the book just intensified the feeling.

Said friend emailed Ms. Milan about it, and, though she wouldn&#039;t tell me the details of the email, said that Ms. Milan confirmed that Gareth is indeed supposed to have Asperger&#039;s. I&#039;ve been wondering why that fact wasn&#039;t mentioned in any of the promo that I&#039;ve seen for the book, because I think it might really have altered reader perceptions of Gareth.

Re: the line: the main problem I had with that other book was that its hero was so horribly, horribly bad at the social stuff. It took many, many more years than it should have for me to be diagnosed. I visited five psychiatrists over those years who missed it completely, even when they saw--and commented on--some very typical Aspie behaviours, and this was after Asperger&#039;s recognized in the DSM. But I didn&#039;t display all of them at once and covered decently in between, so even professionals didn&#039;t put it together. Of course, it&#039;s harder to diagnose in girls, but you can still hide it for years. 

In my personal experience, I&#039;ve found that the longer we go undiagnosed, the better we become at creating coping mechanisms for ourselves. And even when diagnosed at a young age, we seem get better and better at learning how to blend in over the years. (That being said, all my Aspie friends have above-average IQs, which probably helps. But I recall reading that most Aspies do.) The people I know who have Asperger&#039;s and has been coping on their own for a long time don&#039;t really seem too socially awkward. Most of the time, they seem pretty normal, if a bit too reserved or not reserved enough. There&#039;s just something about them, though, and I can&#039;t describe it, but it&#039;s like they don&#039;t entirely &lt;i&gt;fit&lt;/i&gt;. It&#039;s not as obvious as social awkwardness, even though there may be moments of that, and more of a feeling that doesn&#039;t even always become obvious until you spend a lot of time with them.

I could go on and on and on about this, or about how the maternal aspect of Jenny&#039;s relationship with Gareth was absolutely perfect, but it&#039;s late and I&#039;m too interested in this to stop myself if I start. In brief: willaful, I hope you enjoy &lt;i&gt;Proof&lt;/i&gt; as much as I did. It really helped ease my frustration over that other book. (And the fact that so many people in blogland seem to think it&#039;s such a good portrayal! Arg!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually read <i>Proof</i> because a close friend of mine, who also has Asperger&#8217;s, read me the scene in which Jenny explains how other people need to be touched sometimes to Gareth. That alone convinced me that he was like me, but the rest of the book just intensified the feeling.</p>
<p>Said friend emailed Ms. Milan about it, and, though she wouldn&#8217;t tell me the details of the email, said that Ms. Milan confirmed that Gareth is indeed supposed to have Asperger&#8217;s. I&#8217;ve been wondering why that fact wasn&#8217;t mentioned in any of the promo that I&#8217;ve seen for the book, because I think it might really have altered reader perceptions of Gareth.</p>
<p>Re: the line: the main problem I had with that other book was that its hero was so horribly, horribly bad at the social stuff. It took many, many more years than it should have for me to be diagnosed. I visited five psychiatrists over those years who missed it completely, even when they saw&#8211;and commented on&#8211;some very typical Aspie behaviours, and this was after Asperger&#8217;s recognized in the DSM. But I didn&#8217;t display all of them at once and covered decently in between, so even professionals didn&#8217;t put it together. Of course, it&#8217;s harder to diagnose in girls, but you can still hide it for years. </p>
<p>In my personal experience, I&#8217;ve found that the longer we go undiagnosed, the better we become at creating coping mechanisms for ourselves. And even when diagnosed at a young age, we seem get better and better at learning how to blend in over the years. (That being said, all my Aspie friends have above-average IQs, which probably helps. But I recall reading that most Aspies do.) The people I know who have Asperger&#8217;s and has been coping on their own for a long time don&#8217;t really seem too socially awkward. Most of the time, they seem pretty normal, if a bit too reserved or not reserved enough. There&#8217;s just something about them, though, and I can&#8217;t describe it, but it&#8217;s like they don&#8217;t entirely <i>fit</i>. It&#8217;s not as obvious as social awkwardness, even though there may be moments of that, and more of a feeling that doesn&#8217;t even always become obvious until you spend a lot of time with them.</p>
<p>I could go on and on and on about this, or about how the maternal aspect of Jenny&#8217;s relationship with Gareth was absolutely perfect, but it&#8217;s late and I&#8217;m too interested in this to stop myself if I start. In brief: willaful, I hope you enjoy <i>Proof</i> as much as I did. It really helped ease my frustration over that other book. (And the fact that so many people in blogland seem to think it&#8217;s such a good portrayal! Arg!)</p>
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		<title>By: willaful</title>
		<link>http://www.readreactreview.com/2010/01/23/review-proof-by-seduction-by-courtney-milan/#comment-6718</link>
		<dc:creator>willaful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 21:14:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Heh. I just found a timeline of his character, which begins with this line: &quot;Mr. Woodhouse stays at home.&quot;

That makes my point right there. ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heh. I just found a timeline of his character, which begins with this line: &#8220;Mr. Woodhouse stays at home.&#8221;</p>
<p>That makes my point right there. <img src='http://www.readreactreview.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: willaful</title>
		<link>http://www.readreactreview.com/2010/01/23/review-proof-by-seduction-by-courtney-milan/#comment-6717</link>
		<dc:creator>willaful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 21:10:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.racyromancereviews.com/?p=4972#comment-6717</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m really curious as to whether he was based on someone she knew, it&#039;s such a thorough portrayal.

D&#039;oh, and it&#039;s Woodhouse, isn&#039;t it. I am a fan of t&#039;other. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m really curious as to whether he was based on someone she knew, it&#8217;s such a thorough portrayal.</p>
<p>D&#8217;oh, and it&#8217;s Woodhouse, isn&#8217;t it. I am a fan of t&#8217;other. <img src='http://www.readreactreview.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Jessica</title>
		<link>http://www.readreactreview.com/2010/01/23/review-proof-by-seduction-by-courtney-milan/#comment-6714</link>
		<dc:creator>Jessica</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 20:18:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-6689&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;willaful&lt;/a&gt;: Thank you willaful!  And I had never considered that about Wodehouse.  Our PBS is running the new Emma starting this Sunday. Planning to watch it, and will be thinking about your points as I do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-6689" rel="nofollow">willaful</a>: Thank you willaful!  And I had never considered that about Wodehouse.  Our PBS is running the new Emma starting this Sunday. Planning to watch it, and will be thinking about your points as I do.</p>
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		<title>By: willaful</title>
		<link>http://www.readreactreview.com/2010/01/23/review-proof-by-seduction-by-courtney-milan/#comment-6713</link>
		<dc:creator>willaful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 16:23:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.racyromancereviews.com/?p=4972#comment-6713</guid>
		<description>BTW, while listening to &lt;i&gt;Emma&lt;/i&gt; recently, I realized that Mr. Wodehouse is a just about perfect depiction of someone with autism and lower intelligence.  His strict adherence to routines and anxiety without them, his perseverating and circular conversations, the way anything new is bad but can become good if it&#039;s familiar... no one would want to promote him as the latest autistic hero &#039;cause he&#039;s not sexy, but a scholar could make a very good case.

I&#039;ve always found it odd that Emma is so endlessly patient with him, but then, she&#039;s also fond of the none-too-bright Harriet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, while listening to <i>Emma</i> recently, I realized that Mr. Wodehouse is a just about perfect depiction of someone with autism and lower intelligence.  His strict adherence to routines and anxiety without them, his perseverating and circular conversations, the way anything new is bad but can become good if it&#8217;s familiar&#8230; no one would want to promote him as the latest autistic hero &#8217;cause he&#8217;s not sexy, but a scholar could make a very good case.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve always found it odd that Emma is so endlessly patient with him, but then, she&#8217;s also fond of the none-too-bright Harriet.</p>
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		<title>By: willaful</title>
		<link>http://www.readreactreview.com/2010/01/23/review-proof-by-seduction-by-courtney-milan/#comment-6689</link>
		<dc:creator>willaful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 18:30:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.racyromancereviews.com/?p=4972#comment-6689</guid>
		<description>Jessica: here is the actual diagnostic criteria:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.autreat.com/dsm4-aspergers.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.autreat.com/dsm4-aspergers.html&lt;/a&gt;



However there&#039;s a vast variety of other &quot;symptoms&quot; or associated behaviors, and this list doesn&#039;t address the fact that people can change and develop over time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jessica: here is the actual diagnostic criteria:<br />
<a href="http://www.autreat.com/dsm4-aspergers.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.autreat.com/dsm4-aspergers.html</a></p>
<p>However there&#8217;s a vast variety of other &#8220;symptoms&#8221; or associated behaviors, and this list doesn&#8217;t address the fact that people can change and develop over time.</p>
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